I am still quite in shock over the recent news about the assassinations of family members of suspected terrorists executed by US military drones under the supervision of the CIA. What confuses me the most is the lack of a real public outcry. For some time now we seem to have accepted that the CIA uses these drones outside of warzones to kill people that are suspected terrorists in areas where at least officially the local governments oppose such actions. We have also accepted "human collateral damage" during these attacks. To me the recent attack however have a new level as now it is apparently also legit to kill the family members of suspected terrorists outside of warzones in countries that officially oppose such attacks. What level of wrong do we need to reached before we realize that we have nothing left to be proud of our western democracies and legal system?

So lets go through this, tell me when you think its enough:
- executing a death penalty?
- executing a death penalty without a trial?
- executing a death penalty without a trial on foreign soil?
- executing a death penalty without a trial on foreign soil outside of a warzone?
- executing a death penalty without a trial on foreign soil outside of a warzone of foreign nationals?
- executing a death penalty without a trial on foreign soil outside of a warzone of foreign nationals where the local government does not want you to do this?
- executing a death penalty on family members without a trial on foreign soil outside of a warzone of foreign nationals where the local government does not want you to do this?

We do not need to worry about our freedom anymore. Because we have long given up our freedom and handed it to our secret services. Until this stops, we all have blood on our hands and I wonder how we can ever imagine to be able to wash it off again?

I keep hearing people talk with so much hope in regards to Barrack Obama and then I tell them, I have seen some nice gestures, but so far nothing concret that I would consider a real success. Well it seems like things have gotten worse now instead. Or is it his success that maybe these days they ask Pakistan beforehand?

I am not laying this on the US in its entirety of course. Our governments are all quite happy to let the Americans do their dirty work on the pay check of the US tax payer. Nobody is doing enough to make it clear that too many lines of been crossed, that there is no "end" left due to the "means" being used.

That being said, like I said I am in shock over all of this. I do not know how this can happen. How can someone somewhere think this is legitimate? How can I not just drop everything that I am doing and fully dedicate myself to stopping this? I do not want to drop everything, I like my life and its convenience. What is wrong with me? Should the gravity of this situation motivate me to stop thinking about myself? Would writing a blog post like this not be sufficient? I mean I generally think that we all worry too much about what other people do around the world instead of just living our lives in exemplary ways to show the people in my direct neighborhood what we believe is just. Is this not enough? Is it no longer enough?

Now if any "terrorist" or "terrorist sympathisers" are reading this and just to make it clear: I think they are equally wrong and I will not let myself be terrorized. I love my freedom more than my safety, because safety is worth nothing without freedom. But whatever I may feel about the actions of others, killing others is not a legitimate answers, ever (with the exception of self defense in the heat of the moment and when all alternatives have been ruled out)!

It is blasé to say from the safety of a western home, but this is war we're talking about. Warfare. And in war, to be honest, there's no such thing as innocent casualties. It may not seem fair to blast people with machines from the skies. But then since whenever was war about being fair? It has always been about being the one that wins.

What's the calculus, do you strike a militant's home, perhaps at the risk of killing what otherwise might be his innocent family? Or hold fire and have that militant continue to organise / participate in the killing of others? I would argue it is immoral not to kill the militant, even if their family might get hurt.

If you're going to fight, you have to accept that innocent people will get caught up in it. In my view, and I accept that many might disagree, there's no such thing as 'surgical war'. You should never target innocent civilians deliberately but if they are in the way between a target, then that's war.

It sucks. But it's better to fight and win, than to equivocate and lose (and in the latter - more innocent people die anyway).

It's like the arguments for / against the use of Nuclear weapons against Japan. That was a heinous, truly devastating act of warfare. But it saved lives, and indeed perhaps saved the future of the planet - because of how devastating it was, no one has been stupid enough to use nuclear weapons again.

It's very easy to hold a hawkish opinion like mine when you're safely away from the rockets, bullets and bombs, and it's very easy to hold a principled opinion like yours likewise.

But ultimately, if the west is going to fight, it should use every weapon at its disposal to achieve its objectives and should seek to minimise innocent casualties, but not shy away from them to the benefit of militants.

It is not a war by the definition of any western country. As such we cannot apply the rules of warfare. At things are right now there are people killing other people, their family and the people in their neighborhood without any real accountability, trail or whatever.

To me killing foreigners on foreign soil is worse, but I guess some people see it exactly the other way around. Not sure how you see it. So lets say they start doing this inside the US. Let's say exactly this guy and his family have managed to live in the US. Would things be any different from your point of view? How about this guy is your mothers neighbor? Still not different? How about this guy happened to be a US citizen?

If this is war, then we are waging a war on all of us. Because its not the decision of the CIA to decide who is a terrorist and who isn't when you are striking outside of a warzone. They are not trying to bring these people in for trail anymore. Since Guantanamo, also an illegitimate approach, is getting too much criticism (forcing Obama to make promises during his campaign), they are now making thins worse, but getting less criticism. They have given up on our legal systems and we are accepting this. Instead of trying to pretend, they are not plain out killing the people, so that they then do not have to deal with them in a (pseudo) legal manner.

Finally, is there any evidence that killing single people will actually make anything safer for us? I think there is plenty of evidence that states that the situation is quote opposite. Radicals can only be stopped by education and teaching them that we can drop our laws when we feel its more convenient or when feel its more important to safe our lives rather than theirs is exactly the kind of examples radicals can use to show that its necessary to fight us.

Let's say exactly this guy and his family have managed to live in the US. Would things be any different from your point of view? How about this guy is your mothers neighbor? Still not different? How about this guy happened to be a US citizen?

Well it depends on the context. I don't live in the US, but let's say this was the case in the UK. A militant that was organising attacks in London, blowing up markets, murdering civilians and other operations to destabilise the social cohesion.

That would be a state of war. If it meant that to kill that man, to put a stop to his murderous operations and bring the war closer to an end my mother or father, friends or family may be 'collateral' damage, I think I would have to accept that.

I would be outraged if proper care and planning did not go into the operation to take this person out. But I think when people are dying around you, if you are living in a climate of fear, then I think people would be more willing to accept these things.

It's not in our country, yet. But allowing militancy go unchecked will allow it to proliferate.

It's ugly business. No one will say otherwise. But to pull punches and allow a militant to shield his murderous ways by surrounding himself with family is not a way to win a fight. If that's the way to fight then the only way to win is to build a big wall around western countries and kick out anyone vaguely islamic.

There needs to be a balance though. For every hawk there needs to be a dove. That's why western society works (sorta). In Pakistan, in the SWAT area these militants were killing any sort of freedom and surrounding themselves like the rats they are with human shields.

Unfortunately when fighting spineless enemies that use those strategies, innocent people will get hurt.

When fighting total war (as we saw again in ww2 where Köln was turned into a bread tin) you have to fight where the enemy chooses to put himself.

@Lukas:

Its clear you are a man who values morals, and I applaud that.

But, the tribal areas of Pakistan *are* part of the warzone. They are technically within the borders of another state (Pakistan and not Afghanistan). However, this is where the enemy shelters, plans, trains and stockpiles weapons, ammo and supplies. How then can a respsonsible general permit them to operate in safety and continue to freely cross the border to destroy girls schools, intimidate village mayors, shake down merchants, move opium hand over fist, etc?

I'm American, but I'm also a Muslim who speaks the languages there and have been to Afghanistan. So, I just don't see the situation the way you do.

Maybe I'd be sympathetic to the family members if they might perhaps turn thier backs on their mafia activity. But, until then, the family members are part of the problem and are a useful vulnerability to be used against the Taliban and al-Qaeda leadership.

You may have missed the followup:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8192893.stm

The initial reporting was that only his family members were killed, and over time it became apparent (and the NYTimes reported that a top Taliban person confirmed) that Mehsud was in the house.

Not that this changes anything.

It's also a sad fact that Afghan civilian deaths have skyrocketed in the past year, but that most were caused by Taliban attacks.

As for Barack Obama, he actually clearly promised on the campaign trail that he would ramp up military attacks in Afghanistan and even Pakistan. His only anti-war message related to Iraq. I'd also recommend waiting longer than 6 months for the the undoing of all the unbelievably ridiculous damage the Bush administration caused to, well, just about everything.

Your post went on Planet PHP - nice keeping things on topic.

It would be nice if you can update your link on PlanetPHP to a feed that fetches PHP related topics. Thanks.

@Aaron: Right but who makes the call? Traditionally in western societies we leave that up to a judge. Also lethal force is only applied in clear self defense. Are these the same guys who found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? They have shown time and time again that they are willing to lie to the public for their means. I do not trust them to decide who a terrorist and who isn't, but I much less trust them if they think they can start pulling in any one as "collateral damage". At this point we have lost accountability and worse yet, we have no way on earth to be even remotely able to justify the means.

@omarg: Thank you for your insights. Obviously this is all quite distant to me. But from my understanding the region is considered to be part of Pakistan by our governments and from all I have read Pakistan has been protesting these attacks, though not so much this one.

@Greg: That was a second attack carried closely after this one from all I have heard and not related to the previous attack that killed his wife.

@All: Sorry for the off topic on PHP planet. I guess I did not think about it. Unfortunately my home grown news system gone blog, does not support tags or categories, so there is only one feed which planet PHP pulls in. Planet mysql has a filter and I forgot that planet PHP doesn't have one. That being said I have been on planet PHP since day one and this is the first entirely off topic post. I will make sure to not become a repeat offender.

Agreed with Lukas, for the most part. The fact is that this is not a war, it's an invasion + occupation.

Off-topic or not, this is the first interesting, intelligent piece of writing I've found through Planet PHP in quite some time. Sure beats the interminable whining about whether a colon is preferable to a backslash.