ramblings on PHP, SQL, the web, politics, ultimate frisbee and what else is on in my life
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Re: Why I am pissed.

@Andy: I do not think there is a need to get rid of Jani. But I think there is a need to send a clear message. More importantly its important that the mess he created is cleaned up so that we can first do some planning before moving forward.

Re: Why I am pissed.

First of all: ROFLMAO.

Second, you made just one little mistake in all this: you worked behind the scenes (aka the cloak and dagger I mentioned) so I had absolutely no idea what was going on. The Open in OpenSource sure isn't the idea you seem to follow..and what you failed to mention is that a) I reverted The Patch already b) the SVN branch is, jfc, a branch only. Some german "news" site posting some german fud is no news at all and first time I saw any mention about it is this blog post of yours. Get over it!

Re: Why I am pissed.

@Juan: The "Benevolent Dictator" model does work quite well in many open source projects. Rasmus is the only one that can take this role for PHP. He has shut down unhealthy discussions in the past and he seems to also be around this time.

@Jani: Yes, you did revert in the end (pretty much exactly 24 hours! after though). The point is however that committing the patch was simply unacceptable and then not first reverting it and instead creating a new branch is again simply unacceptable. But you still seem to think that these actions are fine and people who disagree should "get over it".

Re: Why I am pissed.

You sure like to act like you know it all. Apparently you don't sleep either. I do, hence the 24h between. Dear god, the world almost ended because of this?! And what prevented you or someone else from doing the revert like I asked IF it was so urgent? sheesh..

Re: Why I am pissed.

i hope that company will not read this, this is a howto give a bad signal to php users, companies, etc..

This post is ok, but the php roadmap management, don't match Quality basics...

Don't panic!

Just as a general maintainer for other software using PHP, general consensus should always been sought before creating a new branch, unless everything only depends on you. There might have been a lot of frustration around, but we're a huge community depending on your excellent work. Thanks for sharing your frustration.

There are lots of people hoping you'll let us benefit from a great PHP6 version... not too late from now.

Thanks to you all for keeping looking for consensus, no matter the problems. You (core devs and maintainers) are great people.

Re: Why I am pissed.

Lukas, I can relate to what you're saying. At the end of the day, this post is not meant to be a personal attack. The fact is, there are rules and proceedures in place for a reason. That reason being that if we start committing changes without the approval of the team, then the team ceases to be a team and instead becomes an individual project. ESPECIALLY when dealing with something as complex as core development. It's not that new ideas and methods that could fix the core aren't wanted, it's simply that if the rest of the team is not ready to change the core at that moment in time, it should be held off until the team IS ready.

This way, when it is implemented, everyone can help out with either debugging or evaluating the results. But when one person does it without the rest, it really brings frustration into the process. Because now, if that person is allowed to go ahead with it, the philosophy now becomes that "If I think it is right, then it goes in, no matter what the team says". And this can be extremely dangerous (for ANY team).

I hope it gets worked out. But I think the best solution is just vote on wether or not (as a team) to keep the branch, or back it up and remove it. Because if one person goes off working on the 5.4 branch and the rest of the team is working on 5.3, then you're going to see even bigger problems then you have now.

yes, it may piss one (or a few) developers off in the process. But the fact of the matter is that any developer who is working with the team, must work WITH the team. And if that means pissing on someone's decision, then that must be done to preserve the team...

just my 2cents

Re: Why I am pissed.

Maybe time to move this to github, if you wish to get more people involved.

Re: Why I am pissed.

Actually there is already a github mirror: http://github.com/php/php-src
I think its better to have the central repo be SVN. The toolchain is widely understood and available so its much more accessible for the masses and its the central repo after all .. it doesn't really need to be a DVCS. But I agree its good that such bridges exist to enable people to work collaboratively with the toolchain they prefer.

Re: Why I am pissed.

One of the core strengths (and problems) with open source is that it's a volunteer effort -- and ideas that are bad generally lose the interest of volunteer developers. Leaders need to be aware of this. It doesn't mean flapping in the breeze and moving with every decision of the community (for better or worse), but it does mean keeping a strategic eye on what the community is willing to get involved in.

It might mean in this case that the RM decisions that were made were wrong, and lost community support. This happens. Instead of taking an inflexible approach and punishing someone who got things moving again, maybe the RMs should re-evaluate that approach?

Strategic retreat is always an option. I think the PHP core team needs to evaluate whether or not its' focus on following the rules and trying to restrict development progress is going to kill or force a fork of the entire project. What's more important, your principles and the way YOU feel about PHP 6 ... or the user base, community, and scripting language as a whole?

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